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Submit a general picture of Revit's concept of coordinates. Explanation of the basic terms regarding coordinates in Revit

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1 COORDINATES IN REVIT Zsolt Varga Autodesk GmbH Objective of the lecture General picture of Revit's concept regarding coordinates to be transmitted Explanation of the basic terms regarding coordinates in Revit Project base point and measurement point: Powerful tools in Revit To get to know a supported workflow with shared coordinates using an example Misunderstandings / Dos & Don ts Description Why do the coordinates in Revit worry many of us Revit users, perhaps even fear? Revit attorneys are worried when it comes down to this topic because the model position is important this function is complex in Revit (more flexibility leads to more room for misunderstanding) we hardly practice this process This talk explains the logic of the project position in Revit is defined and dealt with; illuminates relationships between the most important terms and prevents misunderstandings so that users can benefit from the complexity of the shared coordinates in Revit. Vita After 8 intensive years in the construction industry, Zsolt Varga has been working for Autodesk in the AEC team from technical support since 2013 and supports Revit, AutoCAD Architecture, AutoCAD MEP and Navisworks users in 1 to 1 dialogues, as well as writing and publishing technical solutions in Autodesk Knowledge Network. 1

2 CONTENT COORDINATES IN REVIT ... 1 Objective of the lecture ... 1 Description ... 1 Vita ... 1 CONTENT ... 2 CHALLENGES Abstraction Representation of reality in virtual space ... 4 The universe is large, the model area is small ... 4 Planning coordinates vs surveying coordinates ... 5 Different reference systems in surveying ... 5 BASICS AND TERMS Location and position of the project ... 6 Answer to challenge no.1 .: Size of the model area - 20 miles rule in Revit 6 Answer to challenge no. 2 and 3: Different reference systems in Revit ... 7 Internal base point ... 8 Project base point + project north vs survey point + geographic north ... 9 Labeling point coordinates Location of the project DETERMINING THE PROJECT POSITION Project base point and Use survey points as tools Step 1 Preparation Step 2 Move project base point unfixed (define a base point in the project) Step 3 Point coordinates (coordinate en visible) Step 4. Move the project base point fixed (change the position of the project) Step 5 Move the surveying point unfixed (determine another point in the project as a geographic reference) Step 6 Move the survey point fixed (move the geographic coordinate system in the virtual space) TOGETHER COORDINATES USED General plan / development plan Steps: (See also video :. ) Establishing building positions on the property Steps: (See also video:) Working in the sub-projects

3 steps: (See also video:) GENERAL ADVICE Avoiding misunderstandings Dos & Don ts Further material available in the topic:

4 CHALLENGES Abstraction Mapping Reality in Virtual Space When we talk about coordinates in a CAD application, we must first speak a few words in general about the challenges that every CAD program is faced with. The universe is big, the model area is small CONFLICT BETWEEN THE SIZE OF REALITY AND THE SIZE OF THE MODEL AREA CAD applications cannot and do not want to deal with the infinity of the universe. The model area offers the illusion of infinity, but this is limited according to the objectives of the CAD program. CAD programs for Architecture-Structure-MEP area cannot handle high coordinate values ​​well, these lead to difficulties: With the computer performance With the graphic representation of the geometry With the object snap With the view representation (empty views) Error messages during the energy analysis 4

5 Planning Coordinates vs Surveying Coordinates PLANNERS THINK IN CARTESIAN COORDINATES MEASURERS THINK IN GEOGRAPHICAL REFERENCE SYSTEMS AND THEIR COORDINATES Planners try to keep the coordinate values ​​as low as possible by placing an easily recognizable point on the building in the center of the planning area as a so-called project base point, as a so-called project base point Value for the project coordinates is defined. Surveyors, on the other hand, have a different task and work with geographic coordinates - typically with high coordinate values ​​- so that the location or position of a project on the planet can be defined in reality. Different reference systems in surveying DIFFERENT REFERENCE SYSTEMS IN SURVEILLANCE, parallel reference and coordinate systems differ by country, system, and even by date. 5

6 BASICS AND TERMS Location and position of the project How does Revit deal with all these challenges? What is the concept of Revit in this? Answer to challenge no. 1: Size of the model area - 20 miles rule in Revit In Revit: It is important that a Revit project is modeled within 33 km (20 miles) of this point for performance reasons. 20 MILES (33 KM) RULE IN REVIT: THE HEALTHY MODEL AREA IN REVIT IS NO LARGER THAN A 20X20X20 MILES CUBE 6

7 Answer to challenge 2 and 3: Different reference systems in Revit How does Revit deal with the challenges arising from the different reference systems used by planners and surveyors? Revit has 3 reference systems. REVITING SYSTEMS IN REVIT 1. A reference system for its own virtual space, determined by the internal base point and the x, y, z axes. 2. A Cartesian reference system for the planner, determined by the project base point and the project north 3. A geographical reference system for surveyors, determined by the survey point and the geographical north In addition to these reference systems for registering the position of model elements, the project address can be used as a location in Revit indicate our project on the map. 7th

8 Internal Base Point THE INTERNAL BASE POINT IS IN THE CENTER OF THE 20 MILES CUBE The center of the 20 Miles Cube is the internal base point, which is always invisible and coincides with the original project base point with the coordinates 0,0,0. After exporting a Revit view in the DWG file, this point becomes the 0,0,0 point of the drawing. The internal base point can neither be moved nor made visible in views! 8th

9 Project base point + project north vs survey point + geographic north In every Revit project there are 3 different reference systems. The internal reference system of Revit is not visible and cannot be edited by the user, but what about the other two reference systems. In order to be able to define the relationship of these two systems to one another and to the internal reference system, each Revit project has a reference point and a reference angle of the two coordinate systems. The two points are the project base point and the survey point, the reference angle is the angle of the project north to the so-called geographical north. These points cannot be deleted in the project. At the beginning of a project, these are on top of each other in the standard template and mark the internal base point of the model area. These two points are only visible on the map at first. However, the two points can be made visible in every view under Visibility / Graphics (VV): 9

10 Labeling of point coordinates 2 visible coordinate systems = 2 systems to be labeled. As soon as the coordinates have been specified, the labels can optionally be set in relation to the project base point or the survey point: Example point coordinates: Example plane labels: 10

11 You can also define for each view whether it is aligned to the north of the project (usually orthogonal) or to geographic north (north). Project location Using the ribbon> Manage> Project position group> Location in Revit, you can ideally specify its geographical position when creating a project. For this you can use the postal address, the nearest major city or the longitude and latitude. This project-wide setting is useful for generating location-specific shadows for the views they use, such as solar studies and walkthroughs. The position serves as the basis for weather data that is used during the energy analysis, but this information alone does not affect the project coordinates and shared coordinates in Revit. 11

12 SETTING THE PROJECT LOCATION Using the Project Base Point and Survey Point as Tools A Revit model is full of dependencies and linked elements, pinned or turned off objects, etc. The last thing we want to do is complete a project at once using the Move command move. The reference points of our two coordinate systems in Revit serve as excellent tools for manipulating the project position. We can move both of these points fixed or unfixed, which is a very powerful tool if we have a good understanding of Revit's concept and if we are using it correctly. The Revit Help describes this function as follows: The project base point and the survey point are fixed by default (between fixed and unfixed (click the icon.). To switch) state, select the point and the fixation takes effect at Move the two points as follows: Fixed Not Fixed Project Base Point Moving a fixed project base point has the same effect as the Reposition Project tool. The project coordinates for the model elements remain unchanged. Shared coordinates for the model elements change. Project survey point By moving a non-fixed project base point, the project coordinate system is repositioned both relative to the model geometry and relative to the jointly used coordinate system. The project coordinates for the model elements change. The shared coordinates of the project base point are changed in the shared coordinate system. (The project coordinates of the project base point never change.) Shared coordinates for the model elements remain unchanged. By moving a fixed measurement point, the jointly used coordinate system becomes relative to the model geometry

13 Fixed Not fixed and repositioned to the project coordinate system. The project coordinates remain unchanged for the model elements. Shared coordinates for the model elements change. Project coordinate system moved. The project coordinates remain unchanged for the model elements. Shared coordinates for the model elements remain unchanged. Only the shared coordinates of the survey point itself change Extract from the Revit Help How does it work in practice? Note: In the following exercise I will show you how to use the project base point and the survey point as tools to correctly and flexibly determine the position of a project. Since the following exercise is only about a single building at first, I will replace the term shared coordinates (or geographic coordinates) with the term surveying coordinates as an indication that these coordinate values ​​enable better cooperation with the surveyors. So on the next pages: * Surveying coordinates = geographic coordinates = shared coordinates 13

14 Step 1 Preparation 1. Open the sample project (in the video, a project with the project base point and survey point is both moved to a certain building grid with 0,0,0) 2. When zooming in and out, both points remain the same size as before and immediately visible 3. Label the point on grid 2B with a Revit point coordinate - Revit point coordinates currently have a limitation: they cannot be bound to grid intersections> I use a trick here by binding a detail line with its end point to the grid intersection ALSO SEE VIDEO AT: * Surveying coordinates = geographic coordinates = shared coordinates 14

15 Step 2 Move the project base point unfixed (define a base point in the project) 1. Select the project base point and use the icon to release the fixation (is fixed by default) 2. Move the project base point to a new point Result: The coordinates of point 2B remain unchanged SEE ALSO VIDEO: Why? Because we moved the project base point without it taking the project with it. Because we have set the coordinate origin survey point for the point coordinates. 15th

16 Step 3 Point coordinates (make coordinates visible) As explained earlier, a Revit project manages two coordinate systems at the same time: the system of project coordinates and that of survey coordinates. In order to be able to understand this better, Revit offers the user the possibility to label each model element with the coordinates of both systems. Let us activate a point coordinate labeling for each point 2B: (See also video:) 1. We select the point coordinate that has already been set at point 2B 2. We duplicate this labeling element and select the duplicate 3. We arrange the two point coordinates in this way that the labels are both clearly visible. 4. With one of the two point coordinates selected, we go to Properties> Edit Type> Duplicate 5. Assign a name, for example: Project coordinates 6. Set the project base point for the coordinate origin parameter 7. Set a prefix for the Values ​​under North / South display and East / West display, for example: Proj.N: and Proj.O: 8. If this is desired, we can set a prefix or suffix for the coordinate values. Here I have the m as a suffix specified as a meter unit 16

17 SEE ALSO VIDEO: Result: If we now move the project base point unfixed, you can see how the project coordinates change at point 2B, while the * survey coordinates remain unchanged. * Surveying coordinates = geographical coordinates = shared coordinates 17

18 Step 4. Moving the project base point fixed (changing the position of the project) 1. Select the project base point and use the icon to ensure that it is fixed 2. Move the project base point SEE ALSO VIDEO: Result: All project coordinates remain the same , however, the survey coordinates of the model elements change. Ie: We have moved our project in relation to the geographic coordinate system (* measurement coordinates). It is also important to note that the project has now retained its position (its relationship to the internal base point) in the virtual model space. * Surveying coordinates = geographic coordinates = shared coordinates 18

19 Step 5 Move surveying point unfixed (determine another point in the project as geographical reference) 1. Select survey point and use the icon to release the fixation (is fixed by default) 2. Move survey point to a new point SEE ALSO VIDEO: Result: The coordinate values ​​of the Measurement point change, but neither the project coordinates nor the * measurement coordinates of the building grid 2B change. The unfixed survey point is practically just a marker in a firmly glued geographic coordinate system. * Surveying coordinates = geographical coordinates = shared coordinates 19

20 Step 6 Moving the measurement point in a fixed position (moving the geographic coordinate system in the virtual space) 1. Select the measurement point and use the icon to ensure that it is fixed 2. Move the measurement point, SEE ALSO VIDEO: Result: The coordinate values ​​of the measurement point remain the same, but at point 2B the * measurement coordinates change while the project coordinates remain unchanged. By shifting the fixed measurement point, we shift the geographic coordinate system in the virtual space (in the model area) as well as in relation to the project coordinate system. Since the survey coordinate system is always fixed in reality, it means that in reality we have postponed our project! * Surveying coordinates = geographic coordinates = shared coordinates 20

21 SHARED COORDINATES Revit offers the option of using the shared coordinates function to easily divide a building complex into sections or buildings and to define their position in relation to one another. In this scenario, the construction phases / buildings of the building complex are linked to one another in a main model (as a host). The linked models are moved to their correct position in the host, and their relationship to one another is determined here. After saving the current host file, the shared coordinate system is created and passed to the linked files. CONCEPT: SHARED COORDINATES From this point on, each linked model knows where it is within the building complex. How does it look in practice? 21

22 General plan / development plan The starting point for planning is the data record provided by the surveyor on the property. The creation of a development plan in Revit therefore usually begins with the linking of an external DWG file with real geographic coordinate values, which may result in the Revit limit with the max.Distance of 33 km from the project origin is bogus (Note: Revit only interferes with existing model geometry, the distance between the model elements from the Origo alone does not) If such a file is linked in Revit, this leads to the following warning: We don't want that, that's why we link Auto Centered to Center or Manually Centered the file, and we're going 22

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24 steps: (See also video :.) 1. We create a new project with the architectural template, and switch to the exterior components view. 2. We link the DWG file received from the surveyor with the property geometry, with the Auto Center to Center option. 3. Revit informs us: since the DWG drawing contains real heights, we have to adjust our viewing area accordingly. We set the top edge and the depth of view both to be unlimited. The linked geometry appears. 4. We retrieve the coordinates from the linked DWG file: Ribbon> Manage> Project position> Coordinates> Retrieve coordinates As a result, the survey point jumps far into the distance and marks the origo of the geographic coordinate system used. 5. We now move the survey point unfixed the marked point on our property plan and check the coordinate values ​​of the measurement point at the marked corner of the property. X corresponds to the east-west coordinate value Y corresponds to the north-east coordinate value Z: corresponds to the height value but so far we have only moved the measurement point in the X-Y direction. To correct this, we have to turn the 24th

25 Unfixed measurement point to be moved to the correct position in the section 6. We now open any side view and switch on the visibility of the measurement point and project base point in this view. Since we know the exact height coordinates at the point, we move the measurement point parametrically to the corresponding height 7, unfixed. Of course, we can also move the project base point to a desired height unfixed. In the same way, we can change the layer heights, but not that of the base layer of the linked DWG file. We called up the coordinates of our host project (development plan) from the linked DWG file. If we change this and then save the new position of the DWG, we will also change the coordinate values ​​in the linked DWG file. Revit warns us accordingly: We do not want this change in the DWG file, so we leave the base plane at its original height and hide it in the view so that it does not interfere with the zoom limits. 8. I can now generate the terrain model from the linked DWG file via Ribbon> Body model & property> Terrain> Create from import We now have our master plan ready. This can now host our buildings. 25th

26 Determining building positions on the property In this scenario, we will place bungalows in the concept phase on our property and create a concept for the development plan. We will place the same model several times on the property and save these positions with the help of shared coordinates. Steps: (See also the video:) 1. First I open the bungalow project and enter the project address under Ribbon> Manage> Project position> Location 2. Under the Open spaces, outdoor facilities tab, there is no other position outside of the current position under the standard name Internal 3. In another Revit window, I open the previously created development plan. Here I will link the bungalow file, so it is important to open the two projects in different Revit sessions. 4. In the development plan I choose a contour line and define a project level accordingly, so that I can set the height position of the linked files as easily as possible 5. I link the bungalow file with the Auto center to center option. 6. I also set the position of the linked file in the floor plan and in the section. 7. I will now name the linked file Bungalow-1 and then create two more copies from the link> Revit will automatically name the copies Bungalow-2 and Bungalow-3 8. We now select the building Bungalow-1 and in the properties palette under Other we define a jointly used location for this building.We publish the jointly used coordinate system of the master model (development plan) in the Bungalow.rvt file and then click the Change button 26

27 9. Under open spaces and outdoor facilities, we duplicate the current position internally and give it the name Bungalow-1. We confirm this step with OK and Vote 10. We now repeat this step with the placed buildings and create the positions Bungalow-2 and Bungalow in the master model. These positions are now saved in the jointly used coordinate system. To test this I can for example: delete one of the bungalow copies, then create a copy of the bungalow again. Select the copy and move it to one of the saved positions via the shared location> Move copy to 12. At this point in time, the position is only contained in the host model / master project / development plan, but I have the option to go further and this Write position information in the linked file. I now go to Ribbon> Insert> Manage Links, select the linked Revit file and hit the Save Positions button. (Please note: If the linked Revit project is open in another Revit window, I have to close it first so that I can overwrite this file.) 27

28 Working in the subprojects After we have saved the shared locations from our development plan into the linked subproject file (s), we can further refine our planning. We can comfortably use our project north to align our views, but our building will know exactly who it is in which saved position. Let's check it out briefly: Steps: (See also the video:) 1. We now open the Bungalow.rvt file again and go to Ribbon> Manage> Position> Location> Open spaces, outdoor areas and select one of the recently saved positions and press Define the button as current. 2. If we now switch the orientation of the current view from project north to geographic north, we see the corresponding orientation of the building. The project base point also shows the corresponding coordinates 3. We are also happy to provide any point with a point coordinate label. This will display and update their values ​​accordingly depending on the activated position. 28

29 4. From this point on I can also change the saved position of the building from the building model. In this example we will move the position of bungalow no.2 by defining this position in the building model as current and moving the project base point to be fixed. 5. We save the change and reload the linked file in the master plan / development plan. 6. The position of the building is first updated when we move the building to another saved position and reset it to its original position. For this we again use the shared location of the linked item in the properties palette. Note: It is important to note that any changes in the model will be applied to all saved positions, while changes to the position will only be saved for the current position. 29

30 Export of DWGs with a shared coordinate system The Revit project can be exported from Revit using the shared coordinates. To do this, select the following setting for the export: In this way you will receive a DWG that is again in the original coordinate system of your survey plan: 30

31 GENERAL ADVICE Avoiding misunderstandings Misunderstandings Project address influences shared coordinates Project base point becomes the 0,0,0 point in the AutoCAD drawing after export in DWG Measurement point must not be more than 20 miles (33 km) away from the project base point Linked DWG Drawing recognizes its correct orientation in a Revit view, after reloading even if the orientation of the view in Revit has been changed from project north to true north. Explanation The setting of the project address under Ribbon> Manage> Project position> Location does not take care of the shared coordinates. Not necessarily - when exporting, the internal base point is always used as the Origo for the DWG drawing. If we move the project base point unfixed, it has a different position. The 20 mile (33 km) rule only applies to model geometry. The survey point can mark any point in the geographic coordinate system - this alone does not lead to any difficulties. When reloading an external drawing, please use the orientation of the view in which the shared coordinates were saved. Otherwise the drawing arrives rotated after reloading with the angle between true north and project north. 31

32 Dos & Don ts "DOS" "DON TS" Why change the project position using the project base point Draw a rectangular system of model geometry aligned to the north of the project, if possible, Draw in a view aligned to the north of the project Change the project position by moving model elements Draw their actual geographic alignment in a view aligned with the north of the project. Draw in a view aligned with the true north. We do not want to reposition the project by moving model elements. This can lead to the loss of dependencies in the model geometry. Revit is sensitive to "slightly offset lines" and reports such cases to the users. An incorrect workflow can lead to inaccuracies. Revit is sensitive to "slightly offset lines" and reports such cases to users. An incorrect workflow can lead to inaccuracies. Export drawings with shared coordinates directly from model space views to DWG. Acknowledge Revit warnings, take the time to understand the context of the steps being performed. Export views with shared coordinates from plans to DWG simply ignore Revit warnings when working with coordinates. Multiple views can be placed on a Revit sheet. When exporting in DWG format, Revit distributes these views according to a certain algorithm in the model space of AutoCAD. The relationship to the internal base point is not retained. Patience pays off. 32

33 More material available in topic: Revit Help: Shared Locations Autodesk Knowledge Network: Revit Shared Coordinates Technical Information BIM Autodesk Knowledge Network: Recommended Workflow for Revit Shared Coordinates Autodesk Knowledge Network: Revit: Generating site model using DWG and point file with Gauss-Krüger coordinates (with description in German and video) 33